[MUD-Dev] The reality of constant combat??

Jeff Kesselman jeffk at tenetwork.com
Wed Jun 4 21:13:57 New Zealand Standard Time 1997


At 08:05 PM 6/4/97 PST8PDT, you wrote:
>> From: Jeff Kesselman <jeffk at tenetwork.com>
>> At 09:32 PM 6/3/97 PST8PDT, JL wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, my point was just that societies wherin the ONLY solution to conflict
>> amogn the members is serious violence don't tend to survive long as
>> societies. I was asking for an exampel wehre this wasn't true.  So far it
>> seems like Im safe in my supposition ;)
>
>Now that you rephrase it this way, the probability of such a society existing
>is zero.  The probability of it existing on a mud where any RP exists is 
>also zero. 

Really? then your MUD community is SERIOUSLY different then my commercial
world. Maybe I shouldn't be suprised, but I still am. 

>
>> >Maybe this is the misunderstanding.  Cities do not exist for long in a
>> >state of anarchy.  A power vacuum will always be filled by some group and
>> >the will implement or force a government.  The form and the effectiveness
>> >of such a government will and can be highly variable.  If the government 
>> >is ineffective, areas like you describe below will occur.
>> 
>> When such government is based totally on force, they tend to destabilize as
>> soonas someone else gets close to the same amount of physical power.  In a
>> game designed to be "fair" there will always be many such groups warring
>> for control, yes?
>> 
>You are using extremes to support your theory.  Total anarchy and Total 
>force have never existed within the real world nor are they fairly 
>representative of muds.  Muds can represent the full gamut from 
>primitive tribal societies to aristocracies.

Can or do?  My issue was this, in a nutshell...
(1) Most of my players in teh comemrical world do NOT know any other form
of conflict resolution beisdes (A) physical violence (the bully) or (B)
intimidation through appeal to a higher power (the mamma's boy).  When you
thin kabotu it, these are the only two dynamics directly supported by
American society, so maybe its no small wonder.  (Either you take what you
want/defend it physicly OR you get a more pwerful force like the polcie to
intimdate the other guy.)

(B) It becamse EXCEEDINGLY obvious in our environment where (B) was
something we didn't want to do that (A) became the predominent socail
dynamic.  

As I say, maybe your hand pciked or otherwise limited MUD groups all have a
more sophisticated user population.  If so, well, I envy you your users.

>
>I am talking about the underlying structures of the mud theme.  It is not
>a player-only world.  There is a significant NPC mud population that 
>that forms the basis of the initial world.  Players will play both privately
>held characters (PCs) and game held characters (NPCs) from time to time.  

Hmm?  Are these hand pciked players playign NPCs or can anyone play one?
If anyone can play one how do you keep them from being misused?

>I do not distinguish any 
>differences between player killing and NPC killing.  There will be
>in-game consequences to both situations.

In-game how? Are you saying that you are building into the game system
negative consequences of negative behavior?  Personally, I think this is
100% reasonable but i thought that was something you didn't want to do--
enforce a morality from the implementors.

>In short, I am attempting to build a fantasy world based on interesting 
>historical models.  I have no modern politics built into the game.
>     
A fascinating project. I wish you all luck :)  Ill definately come and take
a look when you have one up and running.  With MY players, a large enough
segment would ignore your whoel game and play "kign of the hill' that
unless you build the social structures that actually existed to control
peopel in thsoe societies into your game design, they woudl wreck it.  But
Im dealing with the mindless destructiveness of the man-on-the-street.

A big proble I run into is that, ultimately, there is no accountability.
Even if you make the game haul off and kill Pkillers, they will just find a
way to create a new character and arm it qwuickly enough that this would be
at most a minor annoyance. It is virtually impossible in my environment to
model the socail structuers of the real world because they are ALL based on
a level of accountability unattainable in the anonymous world of the internet.


JK


>
>JL
>
>-
>"If I'd known it was harmless, I would have killed it myself"
>*- Through a Scanner Darkly - PKD -*
>
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