[MUD-Dev] Life

Jeff Kesselman jeffk at tenetwork.com
Thu Jun 5 16:11:35 New Zealand Standard Time 1997


At 08:07 AM 6/5/97 PST8PDT, jc lawrence wrote:
>[JK:]
>> When I roleplay, I am in fact method-acting, which is my own personal love.
>>  However, the goal is to play a hero.  A schmuck most of us can do in real
>
>Ah, okay.  I like heros as much as the next person, but I got pretty
>tired of them after about the third one.  I like to play a broad range
>of characters.  My personal favorites are the less heroic types - I
>think thieves and mages are possibly my favorite, because their 'goals'
>are so different from those of other characters, 

Theives are a good example IMO anda  good way to show the syubtlty possible
in the cocnept "hero".  In the movie The Saint, Val Kilmer is a hero, even
though his character motivations are all personal.  The definition of
ahero IMo is that when the chips are down they "do the right thing."  The
Saint is an example of whatr I call the "hero despite himself".  These are
difficuklt characters to play because you are always playign on two levels,
manipulating your self into doing the "rigth thing" for purely selfish
motivations.

For this reason they are also among my favorite type.  Its a very
sophisticated form of RP and presents a great RP challenge.

>Actually, I lied.  I don't like heros very much.  I can only think of
>two hero-types I've played in the last year; one was pen and paper

Again be certai nwe are definign "hero" the same.  Let me give a two line
definition..
(1) A hero's life makes a significant or unusual difference in the life of
those around them.
(2) One way or another, for whastever reasons, the hero always ends up
"doign the rigth thing".

Thats about it.

>>A heroic story shoudl have a grand climax. One shoudl at
>
>One of the reasons I find them trite - they all have to have some
>heroic ending. *yawn*

Then Ild say you see very few movies and/or reasd only trite and crappy
literature.  The number of POSSIBLE endings are boundless.

>
>> least die in teh pursuit of something great (be it good or evil).  Ild
>> argue (and have in articles in the past) that the manner of oens death more
>> then anything else speerates the hero from the man on teh street.  Average
>> peopel die for a lot of very stupid and pointless reasons, but heros don't.
>
>I can agree with this even if i don't agree with your desire to play
>a hero 100% of the time.

But shoudol those who WANT to play heros be allowed? If the answer is yes
then its still a relevent issue to the actiosn of the others in the game, no?
>
>> Anyway, the Roleplayers I've played with were all seriously immersive and
>> obtaine enjoyment from getting into their characters heads, they also
>> implicitly understood that to every OTEHR player they were a MINOR
>> character.  They are only the major character in their own story.  This
>> precludes them from killing each other out.  Moreover, they would not even
>
>Okay, but this isn't in-game, therefore is irrelevant to me.  I like to
>give people good reasons within the game itself to do or not do things
>(especially something a notable as murder).  If they want to bring
>in their own ethics/thoughts/whatever (and they undoubtably will),
>that's fine.  It's just mostly unrelated to the actual development of the
>mud, as far as I am concerned.  

Hmm...
You must have a VERY unusual communtyi then, or at elasta  very select one.
 Whetehr or nto people enjoy themselves is a big issue with me, doing
comemrcial work, and these all speak to that.  I can't enjoy mysefl in an
environment that caters to assholes who get their kicks ut of screwing with
me, nor can most people.

Plasyer enjoymenyt is by definition "outsid eof the game". That may make it
irellevent for your goals, for mine its a big issue.

>> Its not a group story, thats part of the point. Its N stories for N
>> characters.  If it were a single group story then competition for the lead
>> role MIGHT make sense.
>
>I don't understand why it's competition, or why the living character
>is necessarily the 'lead' role.  Two characters exist; one throws himself
>in front of a dragon to save the town, the other one stays cowering in
>a shed.  Who is the 'lead' role, here?


Thats not the situation.  Did you read my example as taken from The Saint?
I hate to repeat it, but I wil lif necessary. THATS the situation of a
blindside pkill.

>> >character will do depending on what other people (real people, not NPCs)
>> >will be influenced by your actions, and you certainly wouldn't play a
>> >character that didn't fit in well with a given mud's current
>> storyline/setting.
>> 
>> Yes, the end part is correct.  Playing a charcter with no relation to the
>> envrionmentis generally considered a bit childish and impolite amoign the
>> folks I generally game with.
>
>I *love* picking a role which is completely at odds with a world that
>has become completely stagnent in its own repetition.  If it's a mud full
>of spell-slinging mages, I make a magic-hating barbarian.  

** more examples deleted **

Im not sure what you are sayign here. All these exampels are VERY much part
of the world environment and macth what UI was talkign about.  NOW if you
enjoyed comign into a medevil fantasy world and playign Luke Skywalker,
THAT would be this immature RP of which I was speaking.

>
>> As an example, we had a bunch of Thri-Kreen
>> in DSO who decided they weer gonna be Mecha-Bugs.  Most of us thought this
>> silly, pointless, and less then fully mature but we left em alone to play
>> their game as long as they didn't impinge on the rest of us.
>
>The roleplaying response to this sort of thing is just that they are insane.
>Ie, Player A says, "I'm a Mecha-Bug!"  Player B says, "You look like a
>Thri-Kreen to me.  Is that some sort of clan?"  Player A says, "No, I

yeah, but it gets tiring and pointless. Ultimately you can't change em and
you end up ignoring em.  I too do the "class? what do you nmean "my class"?
 Im no schoolteacher"...  

Doesn't help much.

>> >> Pkilling as a regular thing does take control away.  Neither is right or
>> >> wrong, btu they are imcompatable game models.
>> >
>> >Yeah, hopefully I've accounted for this in the above - you consider
>> >the 'control' others have over a situation when considering your
character's
>> >actions.
>> 
>> Hmm. Not quite.  Its a matter of not seriosuly imapcting the others' story
>> without their approval. Did i make it cleaerer or mushier (MUSHier?) above?
>
>Which is why I wonder how you could *ever* regulate this.  I am playing

It is self regulating PROVIDED you provide a space that encourages such
play.  Making Pkilling easy is highly detrimental to such a space.  Its
abotu that simple.
>
>> Thing is, today's DSO is a product of what has gone before.  Its a game
>> with very strict rules of behavior enforced by semi-god-like game staff.
>> Thsi is unfrotunate. We had no chocie however bncasue DSO was built WITHOUT
>> any thought to these issues and thus no in-game mechanisms to handle any of
>> it.  I consider administrative fixes to be the WORST answer.
>
>Unfortunate, but it really doesn't surprise me too much with a comerical
>endevour.

Well, i believe that with proper definition and design most of it could be
avoided even in a comemcial setting. maybe thats part of our diffrence here.

>
>> We have current hardware limit (due to bad code, one of the many reasons
>> for DSOII) at about 160.  DSO runs over 100 most of the day peaking at
>> between 150 and 160.  So the numerbs sound about comperable actually.  
>
>Ah, so it's equivilent to one of the larger muds.  I only know of maybe
>a dozen that can boast these kinds of numbers.  Most I ever saw was
>Sojurn back in the days when it was still a single mud - over 400 players
>on the average weekday night.

Story is gemstone on AOL pulls peajs of 3,000.  Ofcourse beign on AOL is a
whoel 'nother ball game. A whoel lot of bored users who don't knwo enough
to find their own entertainment beyond its walls...


>>ANMother issue with DSo frabnkly is that its too small.  We have
>> had to arbitrarily designate PvP and non-PvP zones because otherwise the
>> PvPers coudl effectively take voer the entire game and force people to
>> either PvP or not play.
>
>It's very difficult to try to include both of these things in the same
>game, and I've never seen it done very well.  They just don't go together
>real well.

Lol.  Wasn't that my original point?  Guess we've wandered far astray. Oh
well, its a good discussion anyway. Im finding it quite broadening.


>I'd say the following is true of all muds: if you know where you're
>going, the limitations and strengths of your character, and are a descently
>fast thinker/typer, you can run away from almost anything.  There are also
>safe zones, such as temples, which you can find sanctuary if things get
>too hot.  (If you've attacked someone/stolen from someone etc these

The second we've thought about for DSOII  and have a number of varieties.
The former is an inetrestuing obervation.  We are a touch hampered by teh
AD&D systenm here sowe've had to make some compromises.



>> >I assume by muzzle you mean some sort of admin 'mute' command.  We don't
>> 
>> No, actually i meant a personal mute list.

>> Ah., hokay you DO have one.
>
>No, this is a client called TinTin, which allows you to do a large

Ah. We have a custom front end that precludes use of your favorite client,
so we need to build these thinsg into the game itself.

Might be wiorth at some point updating our client to have text substitution
macros as good as a decent MUD client.

JK





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