[MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"

J C Lawrence claw at cp.net
Wed Nov 10 14:20:50 New Zealand Daylight Time 1999

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:32:11 -0800 (PST) 
Matthew Mihaly <diablo at best.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:26:11 -0800 (PST) Matthew Mihaly
>> <diablo at best.com> wrote:

>> I'm going to ignore the RP aspects of this debate as it is not a
>> value system I know well.

A better phrasing would be, "...as it one subject to endless
ubjective interpretation.

>> I advocate a different style of game operation:
>> The admins responsible for ensuring the logical consistency and
>> mechanical functioning of the game world.  Period.  Players are
>> responsible for all social structures, conflict resolution and
>> behaviour.  Admins and Imps have no business or reason to operate
>> in that space.

> Well, this discussion is a bit pointless if you ignore the rp
> aspects of things. Our admins/imps are all (aside from one who
> never is visible to mortals) in-role Gods also, so they definitely
> do have business and reason to operate in social space. They are
> players too.

Note that I did not proscribe admins being players, having player
characters, or being active in the game.  I have no problem with any
of these things (within the caveats Raph has discussed here
previously).  In the case of your gods I seem them merely as
players, with the same activities and mechanics as other players
with the only real difference being that they have instituted a
particular social heirarchy about themselves..
>> Okay, let's clarify here:
>> I can log on, get together with a couple mates, define ourselves
>> as the sole members of a new society which we define, go out in
>> the boonies and declare some area our new empire, write a set of
>> laws of our devising and capriciousness in respect to our society
>> and which will only be applied to interactions with members of
>> our society, define a justice process as ludicrous and
>> impractical as we may care for that society, and then enact them
>> -- all without ever requiring the presence or cooperation of an
>> admin in any regard?

> Yep, go ahead. You better be sure you can enforce the laws that
> you make though, as the game isn't going to help you with it any
> more than it will help the "lawbreakers". 

Ahh, I missed that bit didn't I?  I expect, in the above, the game
to take over the operation of the legal system and justice process
in so far as the responsible players can define it sufficiently for
the game systems to take over.

Also note: I expect such systems to ONLY be applied to the members
of the society which define them.  If you are not a member of that
society, then those systems do not apply to you.  If you are a
member of a different society, then it becomes a matter of foreign
plicy for the two societies concerned.

> In this respect, it's exactly like real life. You want to set up
> laws and enforce them?  Better make sure you're strong enough to
> do so.


>> Which is why you retain the ability for the members of a society
>> to report violations of that societies rules.  This has the added
>> and not insignificant benefit of allowing false accusations,
>> threats of accusation, framing of the accused, etc.

> Sure. I have no problem with that. My problem with your justice
> system was that it's too codified and forces a trial even if the
> community whose laws were broken isn't strong enough to punish the
> offender on its own. 

This is the goof on my part of not mentioning that the systems
instituted only apply to the members of that society.  Membership of
a society automatically carries the implication of being subject to
the systems of that society.

  Bubba, a member of the Witless, storms and robs one of the Doofus'
castles.  Per the Doofus' legal system he is now a criminal and this 
fact (if reported/detected appropriately) is passed on to the
members of the Doofus society.  They take action, or inaction, as
they see fit.  The system at that point is only a recording and
tracking tool, not an enforcement tool.

  Boffo, a member of the Doofus, assists Bubba in his robbery.  This 
is detected and reported, and Doofus is now directly subject to the
automatic application of the societies justice systems (eg the
teleport etc).

Note:  The specific justice system I outline is merely the one I
would instantiate were I to bother crafting a game society.  I would 
fully expect (and even foment towards and implement for them) other
societies to have wildly different justice systems of their own.

  Community size
  Ideal community size is no larger than 250. Past that, you really
  get subcommunities.

J C Lawrence                              Internet: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                            Internet: coder at kanga.nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...

MUD-Dev maillist  -  MUD-Dev at kanga.nu

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